off topic, parking ticket...

[Ianm2]

Well this one is interesting, its a case test I suppose.

I got a 'ticket' for being parked upon a private car park.

First of all, they have no right to issue a parking ticket.

It looks just like a wardens, marked 'penalty charge notice'

Apparently, that's a criminal offence by them in itself, that's the official wording for a road traffic offense, and they can't do that. They can say parking charge notice, but....

It also says, warning, its an offense for anyone but the driver to remove this.

But its not a ticket, what law is being broken by removing that? It applies to official tickets, but not any old thing.

Again, they are 'mimicking' official papers, misleading, plain wrong, and obviously bad company practise, too.

It is not an offense, period.


it also says inside, which looks very official, that failure to pay will involve a court order, etc....as tho by default there will be no 'trial' where I am allowed to present evidence/my defense.

In short, its all very official looking, masquerading as a genuine parking ticket, and almost intimidatory, with 'offense' codes on the rear of the document. Its obviously giving the pretence its a genuine parking ticket, which no private individual has the right to issue.

Its a private company and private property, there are no legal offenses at all, certainly none on the queens highway.

Disgraceful theiving intimidating practises.
It says photos have been taken, its a tiny car park, I think they are getting greedy in the xmas run up so do be careful.

I don't believe that they have.

Inside again is penalty charge, written, so again that's apparently a criminal offense.

Now as to the test.

I am under little obligation to pay it, just bcos any old private person slaps an official looking ticket doesn't mean anything.

I am not guilty of a traffic offense.

There may be some kind of contract which I am in breach of, what I did was park it in the car park, and walk around the corner, instead of using the requisite shops.

AFAI understand, tho', in law a contract has to involve goods, and a payment, so there is none of that.

this is a civil law anyway.

The only other thing is trespass, which I am not sure is criminal or civil.

They say its £35, or £70 if I don't pay within 14 days.

So, being civil, or a minor disagreement as such, the only thing they can do is sue in the small claims court.

Now these shysters will probably invoke all sorts of harrassing letters and no doubt debt collection agencies to try to scare me into paying.

Harassment, btw, is a criminal offense, and if they do, I could sue for damages caused by threats and distress.

but I ain't going to play their game, like I said, private companies do not have the right to levy a ticket and get payment, they can only take recompense in a court for some loss, whatever that is.

So the only way I will pay, is if I get a court summons for some transgression.

Till then, I am ignoring it all.

There may be issues I can sue or get them shut down for, some of these practises are either criminal, or certainly things trading stds/office of fair trading may be interested in, but like a lot of useless quangos, they do sweet fanny adams and let these criminals prosper, and decent people get harassed and victimised.

So, bit of info for you, if you find yourself in the same situ

What happens, is these types of companies are usually run by nasty pieces of work, who dissolve companies, start them up again consistently under new names, and get revenue from unsuspecting people.

They are the scum of society these types, I am afraid, the world would be better without them, I am sure you know the types.

[Darren D]

Ian,

I think you'll find anyone can charge you for parking on private property, even fine you for not complying with the rules.

But they do have to display the apropiate notices, btw, they don't have to be obvious either. Could be 20Ft up the side of a building or some other such stupid place.

[Ianm2]

they can't charge you, even less fine you, in the sense that its a post event charge, perhaps upon entering, yes

they may try, or sue in the court, but they can't levy charges willy nilly as though they are a bona fide official parking enforcer, ie council, or contracted by, or police/traffic warden.

no signs of anyone around, no reasonable attempt to stop me and say 'private ground, please use the shops or leave'

just a stealth swoop and qfo (quick feck off)

it was a girls writing, I think too




anyway, it was a car park for shops, and I think these shops will be losing a few peoples custom, I shall certainly make them aware of that,

would you use a shop that issued you with a fine?

a fine is an official thing, no private person can fine people afaik. period.

They can't prove i didn't go in the shops, I didn't, and I have no receipt, but surely under a 'trial' the onus is on the 'prosecutor' to give evidence, if there is none, the trial is invalid.

The moot point is that they will have to sue for some loss, in a car park, quiet, with spaces, at 4pm, I have no idea what loss has occured to the degree of £35 or even £70.

I may even buy a camcorder, and video it at said time on said day, and present this as evidence, that no significant loss has occured to the value of the 'fine'....charge.

I hazard a bet no photos were taken, I know the area like the back of my hand, have been parking here for years, its a tiny place, never happened b4, in the scheme of things, hardly worth 'policing',

so if they do go to a 'trial' as such, more a claim for damages in a small claims court, ( they can't invoke a court order) but imply they can, and say they can send bailiffs, (whom actually act for the court and only actually act if you defy a judgement), and also say they can affect credit ratings, and all that.( again, only if you receive a county court judgement against yourself)

That's the deceptive nature of this.

1/ can they prove I actually parked there?
2/ can they prove I didn't go in a shop?

evidence?

no evidence, no nothing. onus is on the 'prosecution'

I will if it comes to it, consult CAB (renodog wuff!!) , perhaps a lawyer, and even the police and official bodies about this disgusting intimidating way to extort money.

Its also possibly obtaining money by deception (wrt the official nature of the documents) again, that's a criminal offense.

I will need the pertinent aspects of the law quoting to be convinced otherwise.

There are some very significant and relevant points in here, and I bet 99% of people don't have a clue, that's why I am highlighting some of the issues, and of course, interesting to know the outcome.

[andrew ivimey]

You have my sympathy Ian. This sort of thing (and far worse) happens frequently in a world that is neither fair nor rational.

But with this matter I would have thought you need legal advice. Have you a Citizens' Advice Bureau? It would be more than interesting to know the outcome.

[jimangus]

Is the ticket dated with the time/date of the impeachment and time and date of issue.

I remember that a lot of council parking tickets didn't have this recently and all was invalid without. The same may apply here.

Interestingly we have a carpark next to carsington resevoir where if you get a ticket they have no way of enforcing that you pay. The best thing to do if they give you a ticket there is just to hand it back before leaving with a cheery goodbye.

Jim

[jimangus]

Is the ticket dated with the time/date of the impeachment and time and date of issue.

I remember that a lot of council parking tickets didn't have this recently and all was invalid without. The same may apply here.

Interestingly we have a carpark next to carsington resevoir where if you get a ticket they have no way of enforcing that you pay. The best thing to do if they give you a ticket there is just to hand it back before leaving with a cheery goodbye.

Jim

[Ianm2]

bit more info. after some research.

just as an aside to this, there is no breach of contract, as there is no contract between myself and the car park

a contract in law requires 3 things:

an offer
an acceptance
a consideration

so no contract, no breach has occured.

I am not sure what action can be taken.

it can either be under trespass, or its a tort, which means an act either of co. or omission under which damage has occured.

now I have no idea what damage has been done, like I said, quiet car park, with no entrance fees, nothing has been lost.

so with my limited but growing knowledge, it looks like these people have little case at all.

And the criminal element, extorting money by purporting to be officials, using official wording, misleading 'threat's', and obtaining money by deception. ie again masquerading as an official document, using official wording, and the threats of court orders, CCJ's, credit ratings, none of which is true.

Some of their actions, like I said may well be criminal offences.

That means, btw, ebay purchases are not legally binding contracts, UNTIL and only until payment has been made,

as no consideration has been made, it is a statement of intent, and an aggreement, but little more. Despite what ebay say.