Frugal Horn Mk3

[pre65]

Originally Posted by Toppsy

But I'm glad you are happy with your FH3's. Compromised, as they are, by the too thin MDF construction and FE126En driver.

Hi Colin. Having had to opportunity to hear Andrew's Frugal horn 3 speakers in my own living room must admit I was quite impressed.

We tried them in open space (nice) and as much into a corner as we could (difficult in my room) and indeed the bottom end benefited somewhat.

But, good as they are, my baffles trumped them a little, but with an 18" bass unit that's not surprising.

I'm getting my pair of Frugal 3 cabinets ready to use at the moment, as I'm trying an FE127 in the baffles, the FE126 (enabled) are free to use now.

And also Colin, any news of your BBP flat pack cabinet kits yet ?

[andrew ivimey]

Hi Colin, glad you are back.

Thsi is all interesting stuff and I really want to hear what the alpairs do though I am biased against them because they are so insensitive.

Now, my Frug3s could be improved I guess by thicker mdf and I'd love to hear what birch ply does to them.

You know more about the different models of speaker than I do but I have tried 127s (which are nice but weedy; which I what I would have expected) 126 and 126ens which both have oodles of fast and balanced bass - though, there is no way they can do the bass that e.g. Tannoy 12inch HPDs can do. 126s and 126ens do have a tonal difference but my 126ens are much newer than the 126s so that might matter.

At Philip's I was able to try them on a carpet out in the room with 126ens (not so good) and closer to the back and side wall - impressive! From your work on this I would guess you would recommend outriders/spikes on carpet and where you can't use the corners?

Frug3s are great and if I lived in a small house with paper walls I'd use them ... or the Sabs (even though they do need space to get all they can give out) As it is I can use bigger speakers which in the final analysis are actually better.

All good stuff though!

[Toppsy]

Let’s not get carried away here guys. After all we are talking about a small floorstander speaker with a 4” full-range/wide-band driver in it.

Many, if not all, a well designed and executed larger driver speaker will outperform these especially in the dynamics of the presentation. To compare them to an open baffle speaker with a large bass driver and smaller wide-band unit or even compare to the performance of any the concentric Tannoys is pure silly. If they did match the performance any those then there is something seriously amiss the design of the speakers you are comparing the FH3 to. Chalk and cheese comes to mind. However, should one be looking for a small aesthetically pleasing horn loaded floor standing single driver speaker with loads of WAF and performance to match you can’t do any better than consider these as perhaps the best available today in that genre of speakers. BUT in the FH3 the fostex is really the poorer performer. Especially if one cannot corner load the speakers? In that case any of the Mark Audio drivers mentioned will outperform and excel. Especially so the Alpair7 that has the same clout as its cheaper brethren but has a certain finesse in the higher frequencies the others lack.

As you have found the FE127 is not suited to this design cabinet and the FE126, though better, for me has a far too-forward a midrange and there is still a 7k hump in the FR plot that can and does lead to sibilance in some female vocals. Not as bad as its predecessor but still evident in listening. This can also cause tinnitus with some folk. They also lack the bass clout of the MA drivers. As it happened one guy who came to listen to my FH3’s found that within 2-mins of firing up the Fostex Fe126En speakers he was complaining of ringing in his ears with his tinnitus and this with over 100-hrs of burn-in time on the drivers. In the end he loved the CHP70 sound in the FH3 and said they were the only speakers he had heard in the last few years that sounded right to him, suited his music tastes and did not bring on his tinnitus. And apparently his search for suitable speakers had included some rather expensive commercial offerings.
He is now the proud owner of a pair FH3’s installed with CHP70’s and finished in natural Ash. Oh and with outriggers.

Even though you are ‘prejudiced’ against the MA drivers due there inefficiency, considering what amps you have at your disposal or could easily build I find this comment surprising. I have no problems with any the MA drivers in the FH3 using a 300b SET.

Phil,
I still haven’t come to a conclusion whether to go ahead with the flat-packs or not. It means a considerable initial cash outlay and the purchase of a minimum number of CNC cut kits from my wood supplier and I do wonder if there is the sales potential to even break even. As you know I am still unemployed with little prospects, at my age, to get back into full-time employment and the outlay would seriously dig into my meagre savings. I might just concentrate on building complete speakers to order: though they are few and far between. Would you be prepared to pay £150-£175 + P&P for a CNC kit, less the drivers? Knowing you, I think not. And from my experience you are atypical the DIY community on the whole. Don't take that as an insult. Strange that many a DIY’er will pay lots of money for a pair of audio valves or some exotic TX’s but when it comes to speakers equate the cost to a single sheet of BB Ply irrespective the work and time that goes into making the cabinets. They expect them for mates’ rates or get a ‘mate’ to make the cabinets for next to nowt. Hey, but that’s life. As the French would say Cest la vie.

[andrew ivimey]

I don't think either of us were getting carried away - We have these remarkable speakers, however compromised (and hence my comment about birch ply), in perspective. I was recounting my findings so far.

I have weedy amplifiers too, Colin, and I love high sensitivity speakers (95dB+ < higher the better!> and the compromises that these partic. Fostexes do always brings a smile to my face because they are so small). My Saburos are twice as tall and don't need outriggers. Frug3s are stable enough in situ at Bedford Towers and weren't going to fall over at Philip's. Should tehy more heavy, do you think? - thicker wood wood help that.

To date I have always preferred speakers as sensitive as I can achieve. Perhaps I am wrong in this.

Having had ATC speakers and still have LS35as I know something about low sensitivity speakers and high power amplifiers. I've heard some of your speakers before too (with Aplairs?) but not your latest!

So I repeat, I am eager to hear your latest with these Alpairs/CHP70s. Apart from you I only have Cressy's comment that CHP70s aren't half heavy to drive!

[Toppsy]

I only have Cressy's comment that CHP70s aren't half heavy to drive!

I would dearly like to know the qualification of Cressy's comment regards the CHP70's. To the best of my knowledge he does not own a pair these drivers though he does have the metal coned CHR70.

If he finds these , quote, 'heavy to drive', then may I respectfully suggest his amp is lacking in drive and not the fault of the 4-ohm 85dB efficency speakers. My little 6EM7 amp copes easily with both the CHP70 and CHR70 through the 4-ohm OPTX taps though this integrated amp does have a pair of 'Silk' TVC's via a unity gain buffer to help things along. This amp also does a very good job driving my Chillinghams with twin parrellel wired CHR70's. Though they do sound more 'alive' with my NickG designed 300b SETs.

Next you are up north you are welcome to a stopover visit and have a listen in a real room environment.

[pre65]

I have the boxes that Ant's speakers came in (don't ask ) and they are indeed CHR70.

My Frugals, with Dave D enabled FE126 (not the latest version) have been playing for 3 hours now. A foot from the wall, but not actually in a corner, on the carpet (over a solid floor) with no feet. Not bad at all.

The amp at the moment is 6B4G (6.3V octal 2A3) so the extra efficiency and 8 ohm of the Fostex are of use here.

I might make some stabiliser feet for mine as they need raising up an inch or two, and it's nice to have some of my living room back.

[Toppsy]

Phil,

The Fostex FE126 in the FH3 need all the help they can get to produce decent bass. So direct coupling to the floor will help here. Raising them on spikes and effectively decoupling them from the floor might in this instance be a detrograde move. Anyway that is what I find in my room such that now when I run my FE126En verson I do not use any outriggers or spikes. The prime reason and purpose of the outrigger spikes is to provide additional support on a thickly carpeted suspended floor however, they also help tighten up the bass of the MA drivers that can be over 'plumey' directly mounted on a floor and the cabinets also require additional damping to tame the bass. This cannot be said for the Fostex drivers where the cabinets require considerably less damping.

[cressy]

Originally Posted by Toppsy

I would dearly like to know the qualification of Cressy's comment regards the CHP70's. To the best of my knowledge he does not own a pair these drivers though he does have the metal coned CHR70.

If he finds these , quote, 'heavy to drive', then may I respectfully suggest his amp is lacking in drive and not the fault of the 4-ohm 85dB efficency speakers.

youre right colin, i dont have any chp 70s, though i will have some soon. so i dont need to qualify any statement that i havent made. i shall however report back on that when they arrive. and you are right also in that the amp i was driving them with didnt have sufficient drive. that was the se 6s4s that produced about 3.5w and was very conservatively biased on its output stage due to limitations on the dissipation of the 6s4s.

so, i changed the amp and converted it to a single ended pentode kt88 amp, that puts out about 10w. this does drive them and does so with aplomb. ive no idea as to wether the chp70s will be any different in terms of driving them, but haing read your comments on a/t having using them, i decided to get them to replace the chrs as unfortunately i have now got 2 with damaged cones due to the kids.

im now happy with mine, now the amp is better matched to them