Seas Kits

[Richard]

i have found that with better equipment these bands can sound a bit thin and sound 'better', with a bit of distortion.. but thats not whats on the recording.. they are very clean if you know what i mean,
i would say the problem is more that people have mental picture of what the music should sound like.. and if it don't it must be the replay equipment's fault...

? Some tracks have distorted instruments, some are clean. It's very easy to hear on a good system and is part of the music. It did sound awful at Bristol, I've heard the discs at home. A track we played for example was Cold Play Rush of Blood track 4. Listen to the single crunched guitar come in towards the end, on the far right, over the top of an otherwise clean track.

What I heard from Richard's discs was direct injection from the instruments into the ADC and then to the mixer and very close miked vocals, plus considerable dynamic compression, all of which are typical of today's pop recordings. No doubt Richard's speakers and lively listening room brings these recordings 'to life'. In a highly damped hotel room sitting close to the speakers it was all a bit aggressive and hard.

Peter, Pop has always been artificial. DI is common now, 2 years ago I bought a big Marshall cab and head from a studio which simply no longer used it. Yes it's compressed but the dynamic range of those discs is far greater than most older recordings. They're demanding discs that can sound great on a good system or just a jumble of noise on a poor one. That's why I took them! You too of course were a wise fellow in taking along speakers that had a chance in those rooms and playing Dire Straits and friends on vinyl. They worked better than many others we heard and produced a big wall of sound. There are lots of trade-offs for standing them against the wall but there wasn't much choice and they gave a good account. We did expect better in some of the megabuck rooms which simply collapsed into one-note honking at low f.

Rich

Interesting topics!

I wonder if the 'review' of the WD room that NealG quoted from ZeroGain had anything to do with these difficult (and very popular) recordings?

I understand that Richard's modern rock/indie discs sounded wrong in the hotel room, but did anyone ask to hear any funk, punk, reggae, electro, rap, soul, house, metal, dub, techno, new wave, psych, ska, blues, disco, ambient, country, trip-hop, krautrock, motown ... ?
If so did they all sound bad too?

I do understand the temptation to play it safe when demonstrating equipment at a public show, but it is not going to attract any fresh blood if "hi-fi" then seems to be a closed clique only for those interested in sensible, unchallenging (to system, listener or room) AOR music played at sensible, polite volume levels.

I have read that some at the show (e.g. Focal) spend considerable time and money making the room 'better', but did any room dare to play music beyond the norm?
Or was the attending public so stereotyped (male, white, 45+) that this would not have been the done thing?

I am not trying to offend, I am interested in the answers as it would be good to know that hi-fi has a future and that I am not destined to become part of a slowly dying 'hi-fi appreciating' stereotype!

[Baggy Trousers]

"Good drivers using good horns do, indeed, give the amplifier a lot of headroom and move air in a way that allows the dynamics (where they exist on the recording) to be felt as well as heard. The trouble is that good horns are few and far between "...[/quote]

Sadly, that is only one of the troubles. Horns, almost by definition, are dimensionally very large - too large for most modern homes (not to mention wives who think something the size of a commercial refrigerator should stay in the kitchen), are of complex construction and correspondingly expensive.

Additionally, they are highly addictive. For "organic" music they have absolutely no peer. However, I suspect they might not be the best for the reproduction of "manufactured" music but since I do not listen to this, it does not concern me.

I have had pairs of GRF Tannoys for years - corner and rectangular - and currently am building a pair of "Autograph" cabinets which are horn loaded front and rear. I don't know if Octave Audio (who have their works in Bristol) were exhibiting last weekend at the Marriott but they have nearly a year's lead time for the supply of a replica, the prototype of which appeared nearly sixty years ago. Plus ca change . . . .

Sorry Peter, I shall be in the market for and look forward to another amplifier kit when you get around to it but speakers? - well, I'm sure you will understand if I continue in the belief that real HiFi glows in the dark and has horns!

Richard.

PS Thank you for your involvement with the BB - a refreshing change from past management.

[Paul Barker]

Bruce Edgar maintains that horns distort one frequency or another as they amplify, and demonstarted by talking through a horn of no clever design and then through a tractrix design. The difference was remarcable.

Nobody wanted to leave his room at vsac, eventually you felt duty bound to get up because you had to let someone else have a turn. Post vsac I realised Oris horns, Lowthers et al were all still in kindergarten, sound horendously coloured and have no place in acurate music reproduction.

[Ray P]

Originally Posted by Will Cowen

They have a Faulty Towers interior feel about them.

is that unusual in this hobby - they are truly superb. The sound in Bruce's room at VSAC was one of the best I've ever heard (I think Paul has the same view).

Paul, I haven't forgotton them but I suspect we're both suffering in the same way with too much work and too little spare time.

Ray

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Lord.

Interesting topics!

I wonder if the 'review' of the WD room that NealG quoted from ZeroGain had anything to do with these difficult (and very popular) recordings?

I understand that Richard's modern rock/indie discs sounded wrong in the hotel room, but did anyone ask to hear any funk, punk, reggae, electro, rap, soul, house, metal, dub, techno, new wave, psych, ska, blues, disco, ambient, country, trip-hop, krautrock, motown ... ?
If so did they all sound bad too?

I do understand the temptation to play it safe when demonstrating equipment at a public show, but it is not going to attract any fresh blood if "hi-fi" then seems to be a closed clique only for those interested in sensible, unchallenging (to system, listener or room) AOR music played at sensible, polite volume levels.

I have read that some at the show (e.g. Focal) spend considerable time and money making the room 'better', but did any room dare to play music beyond the norm?
Or was the attending public so stereotyped (male, white, 45+) that this would not have been the done thing?

I am not trying to offend, I am interested in the answers as it would be good to know that hi-fi has a future and that I am not destined to become part of a slowly dying 'hi-fi appreciating' stereotype!

Matt, Greg will confirm that your comments are exactly those we made at the show. Audio can't compete with the portability of MP3 but it can show how good home music can be. If it doesn't do this at a show then there's something wrong with the industry.

Greg and Peter were very helpful in playing several tracks. When they came on there was a gaggle of younger people at the doorway. Some stayed, some went but the interest was there and the opportunity had been created. Whether the chap from Zerogain was amongst them I don't know but there were only a handful of tracks, just on the Sunday, so he mayhave been complaining about them (they did sound bad) but it may have been the DS . For anyone reading these all get airtime on radio and are some of the biggest sellers in the UK. For anyone involved in selling audio I suggest you get up to speed pronto,

Coldplay Rush of Blood track 4 Scientist
Greenday American Idiot track 4 Boulevard 7 Novacaine
Arctic Monkeys Whatever People track 9 mardy bum

A couple of others played were,

David Gray White Ladder track 8 This years love (sounding great like all these tracks on 5.1 from the computer in a 12 x 12 room as I type)

Joni Mitchell Blue track 9 Case of you (sounded good but the tradeoff was no image)

Sadly there was very little challenging or modern music played anywhere. When we were 20 in the late 70's shows bounced with Donna Summer, in the 80's Dire Straits and even into the 90's with Tracy Chapman. Now the bosses are older! They are stuck in a rut and will pay the price.

Rich

[Scottmoose]

One of the best horn sounds I know is Terry Cain's Bigger Is Better folded rear corner horn. 6ft tall, 7" wide, 14" deep. Stuffed into rear corners with the Fostex FF165K they make music, and couple to the room like little else I know, bar the old Tannoy Autographs I heard a few years back. I'd love to hear his Double BEN ES horns. Are they hifi? Well, I'll be honest and say no. They have lots of issues, though they simulate worse than they measure, and they are terrific fun on jazz and classical. They can do rock too, but not so well. I still love them dearly, and if I only listened to that sort of music, I'd probably never have sold them, but as I'm really a rocker at heart, it was time for something different and more versitle. Can you tell I'm going to be flexing the credit card when the new floorstanders emerge?

[Greg.]

We need to get this into perspective. WD is a very new company presently marketing only one product. All the indicators are that more products will follow.

My equipment was loaned to Peter for the show so he could demonstrate his speakers. I am not a audio businessman of any kind. I am a hobbyist only. My kit has been built totally selfishly with my own perspectives and listening pleasures as the goal. I do not like the music Richard requested, would never buy or stop to listen to it and my personal view is that it is superficial here today, gone and forgotten tomorrow ****. It is of no interest to me whether my kit can reproduce it or not. If I wanted that sort of sound, I'd not want to listen to a 45 year old record deck coupled to more ancient technology into aperiodic design speakers. If you do want to listen to this style of music (I use the word glibly), probably a hi-fi show is not the place for it. That might show some limitations of the industry, but that is of no concern to me and I suspect Peter is not looking to target those people anyway. Yes, probably most people in attendance were male and in middle life. Few of the punters in attendance would want to listen to Richard's music anyway. However, it was interesting how many young people did come into listen over the course of the three days. If the sound is impactive and dynamic, any age will listen to anything. I played a favourite recording of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor and held three late teens, early twenties guys transfixed. I doubt man will still be playing 'Cold Play' in 250 years time. One lady listening to this commented on how she really thought she was actually there. Incidentally I recommend this as the best recording I've heard of this piece. (DG 427 668-2).

Matt's post can be summaried by the suggestion that what and how we demonstrated may have been 'polite'. Quite the opposite in fact. Peter has already commented that I like high listening levels and when I was DJ, we listened loud. Samples of both mine and Peter's music collection were used. I considered what would demonstrate the speakers well and what the punter would like to hear. I picked out tracks that were dynamic, testing and even if the punter did not know the music, would still keep their bum on the seat.

A considerable number of punters returned to the WD room more than once, some up to four times. There was alot of interest in the kits, but most satisfying of all were the 'best sound at the show' comments we had from several people. The presentation also received the approval of Noel Keywood and David Price.

Best wishes,

Greg

[NealG]

I wasn't there so not in a position to comment, however, I remember seeing a documentary on TV about the Beatles and footage from the time interviewing one very 50's esk man in presentation and voice commenting about the Beatles, something along the lines of 'it's a complete row / noise, it will never catch on...not real music' roll the clock forward....

[Greg.]

Come on Neal, You're comparing chalk with cheese