kel84 upgrade

[Greg.]

Hello Bearded Fiddler (have you got a real name?)

Give it at least 100 hours of burn in before making your final conclusion. If after that you still feel unhappy and are presented with the same effect, swop out the wiring. Silver plated copper is well known for this effect in some applications which some like and others don't. I'd leave the caps alone as I very much doubt these will be responsible albeit that on their own they will make the sound more forward, detailed and revealing with better extension.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Greg

[andrew ivimey]

Its the caps, BF, just the caps.

good luck with getting it how you want it.

[Richard]

Hi BF,

The result you mention is what I'd expect for those parts but I agree with Greg; let it burn in a while before changing anything else as the sound tends to become smoother and you may well adjust to it yourself. These things can often be a double-edged sword, some records will sound better and others maybe not.

I've swapped out exactly the parts you mention in my own builds of various amps. Those Soniqs caps for example are the only polyprop type I actually like! They are full and detailed unlike some others which are light and tinkly. The standard orange drops are fairly neutral but cold and lifeless in comparison.

What may be happening also is that those parts are now allowing you to hear the rest of the amplifier more clearly. Next step I'd suggest, if you've not alreday done it, is to replace the Ecf80s with Mullards which have a fuller tone than the standard EI ones.

Here's my Pre3 with your wire and coupling caps (the PSU for it uses schottkies),

[bearded fiddler]

Thank you all for your advice, which is exactly what I needed.

Jan (of course I've got a real name

[andrew ivimey]

Hello Jan,

This is the reasoning behind my, admittedly, short post.

Orange drops are excellent caps and they give a clear and warmish tone to an amplifier. They really are a great place to start. (and although many of us itch to 'upgrade' I am equally sure there are many out there who would be happy to stay with them. Sometimes it takes a longer journey to get back to orange droppers, but at least that has been interesting and something learned. I have used them and I have plenty in my spares box. I don't have a problem using them with coupling and this is what makes the biggest difference to an amplifier. Having breadboarded an amplifier (and I have built more ampifiers than many peeps here and elsewhere) often using the reliable and trustworthy orange droppers I do 'up-grade' towards scr teflons and audionotes, but I have gone through the delightful country lanes of Sonigs, beeswax, russian teflons, hovlands etc etc etc.

Silver plated copper wire, I use all the time, (on eBAY it is very cheap and the seller, 'NAVSHIPS' is fast friendly and efficient, in the USA. Though my WAD PSU, pre and phono has solid silver, teflon coated. It is my default as my busbars are always tinned thick copper wire. I will use almost anything from Litz through the bog standard stuff you get with a WD kit. (I've even built five or six of these) But I draw the line at stripped out mains cable. It is useless.

Type of wire IMHO makes a difference but it is small compared to coupling caps. In a KEL84 wire type will make almost no difference. When I experimented with the inputs wire, back in the days that the inputs were as old school as you could get, I still didn't hear significant difference between bog standard hook up wire and screened OFC, though the latter is harder to use in a confined space. In my WAD pre etc I kept wires as short as possible, avoiding fastidious neatness too as that can cause inductance hums. Screened cable, on the whole, should not be necessary.

Rule #1 - 'Burn in' is vital; otherwise you don't know what you are dealing with.

If you read my posts and selection of pics you will see that I have contributed much enthusiasm, some advice and a lot of humour. This goes way back to WAD days where Greg is an old boy too.

I apologise for my brevity and I apologise for this rather lengthier post (which, ... dear reader, would you prefer!)

I repeat, quite happily, that I really hope you do get the sound you are looking for. That is one of the prime things this forum is about, isn't it :-)

Richard, your build is impeccable! I wonder if I could build something as neat as that.

[Richard]

Richard, your build is impeccable! I wonder if I could build something as neat as that.

Ha ha get off the breadboards all I did was use the black cable ties, WD do the rest with that kit construction!

Nice post Andrew and I agree with all you say. Like you I went the long way round to finding that orange drops are very good caps and only recently found I preferred the Soniqs (made by Clarity caps it says on the label).

As Jan says though they are livelier and it may simply be that the standard Kel84 is very nicely "voiced" already for his tastes. Leave it a while though seems to be the concensus.

I remember articles by Ken Ishiwata and Andy Grove which explain that whilst components do sound different the successful "voicing" of them together to give a pleasant result is the clever bit. As some of us here have found it is easy to get a brighter sound that may not be as pleasant as a dimmer one etc and the price of the component is often no guide.

[bearded fiddler]

What about replacing the Soniqs polyprops by paper-in-oil types to get a warmer sound if still necessary after burning-in? Do they fit inside the chassis?

[Richard]

Hi Jan,

Loads of opinions here I'm sure .

My exp is that PIO (I've only used AN alu and tin varieties) sound feathery and light with no focus when first installed. After a few days the sound becomes more solid but still seems somewhat bandwidth limited. The bass is warm but muddy and the treble quite prominent in the lower region but somewhat limited in its extension; presence is good but air is lacking. That sounds damning but it's not really as we are discussing minutia here and the sound is still very good overall with a certain undefinable character which may appeal or not - a colouration maybe compared with plastic types - or maybe plastic just doesn't let the colour through depending on your point of view .

They do have a very nice midrange and I used them for quite a while so it may well depend on your music and system at the time. WAD's original upgrade kit used to use Jensen PIO and the ones WD sell are a very good price.

They fit ok by slipping some insulation over the leads and leaving them long to hang them off the pcb. Here's a pic of mine inside Kit88,



Rich

[Bizzie]

I have used the soniqs in my pre II and phono II and found them to be very bright sounding and after a week had decided to change them for something else but being rather busy at the time they got left in for a while longer.

After about a month of use the sound changed for the better and all the brightness disapeared and ended up detailed but smoother more rounded sound.

I would agree with previous advise and live with it as is for a while longer to let everything burn in properly.

[bearded fiddler]

You were all very right. After about 150 hours the sound had mellowed a great deal and after that seemed to have stabilized. In fact I think that eventually the sound of the Soniqs caps is warmer than that of the Auricaps I used in a phono pre and which were very bright (I replaced them by Mundorfs silver/oil). A last question: do Schottky diodes have a sonic signature of their own?