Pickering XV-15 vs Ortofon Kontrapunkt B

[Black Stuart]

Clive,
your quoting from theory and not from practice, the Pickering is a Pickering and not a Denon 103. As I said try the Ortofon in a high mass arm and then try the Pickering, I'm not interested in theory that does'nt come from practice. Such theory is arrogant and speaks more about trying to justify shelling out a lot of money for something.

Andrew, your always popping up sniping and then dissappearing from view. What you are actually saying is that your assertions are fine and mine are'nt, well I for one are'nt buying that arrogant BS.

What is it that you can't understand - thought is a function of space-time is'nt it - or are you going to dispute that too or should we try and resusitate Einstein to help you understand that point.

Thought can only ever operate in the past, it can never under any circumstances be sad to be 'in the moment' so there you are thinking about the music rather than actually listening to the music, this simply means that you are in fact 'behind' the music and are in fact listening to 'your interpretation' of the music and not the reality of the music, now that's easy to understand is'nt - that is if you have an open mind.

You should also be at pains to remind everyone that you also use a Kontrapunkt B, so your opinion is totally biased towards that cartridge is'nt it.
At least Clive did'nt make a stupid statement saying that 'the Pickering has no bass' and BTW you never informed the forum of exactly what type of arm you used the Pickering in, did you?

There have been far too many of these 'opinions' on this forum over the last year or so by those who have a vested interest in products they have bought and conducting so called tests that are set up to rubber stamp what they have purchased - this does no good for the reputation of this forum.

To even begin comparing one cartridge costing £69 (but with 2 spare cartridges) against one costing over 1000% more is itself ludicrous but to deliberately skew the result by using an unsuitable arm for one and not the other is absurd.

Clive is a business man, so he will know that in business, percentages are everything. It would be nice to see him set up a totally fair test using the correct arm for each cartridge and then giving at least a rough percentage ranking on each point - bass/treble/soundstage but that would make the Ortofon a very bad buy indeed.


I am going to use this thread on another forum and it will send the 'science believers' - all cables sound the same into a state of Nirvana and why?

Because you have proved their argument totally, that is what they say about those who buy expensive I/Cs/PCs (power cords) 'I've bought it so I've got to believe I've bought wisely - otherwise I might look like a wally'.

Andrew you posted sometime ago that you disputed what I said about the origins of the Celts - you were going to come back with a rebuttall - you did'nt , simply because you could'nt but neither did you come back with an apology. You disputed what I said about obesity not being tolerated in the NHS but you were a schoolboy in the 60's and a student in the 70s' so what would you know about the state of affairs in the NHS in those decades and what you were disputing was the knowledge of a professor of paediatrics who works throughout those decades in the NHS, namely my partner Angela - I really don't like someone using a public forum to try and make out that Angela is either a fool or a liar, she is neither but you most definately are a prat and a very insecure one at that.

If anyone and that means without exception wants to do an A/B test, should be required to make absolutely sure that they have conducted these tests on a scrupulously fair basis, so that others can make use of data and not self interested opinions - otherwise you end up with a pathetic bunch of mutual backslappers - or maybe that is what some want. A lot of good people have already departed from this forum for just that reason.

[Clive]

Stuart, I really don't want to get into all the "other" stuff....where I'm coming from with the needs of a 103 vs XV-15 is that they are from similar eras and as far as I'm aware have similar arm requirements (I've not checked their relative compliance, I readily admit). Maybe you will dig up the figures now.

People I trust say that an air-bearing Ladegaard works well with a 103 so I am extrapolating that the cartridges have similar arm requirements - you have to do that sometimes, I'm not going to try every combination, life is too short.

Hmm....interesting, 103 compliance is 5 um/mN, Kontra B is 12 and the XV-15 is 17. Shouldn't the XV-15 need a low mass arm?

Clive

[The Shadow]

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

If anyone and that means without exception wants to do an A/B test, should be required to make absolutely sure that they have conducted these tests on a scrupulously fair basis, so that others can make use of data and not self interested opinions - otherwise you end up with a pathetic bunch of mutual backslappers - or maybe that is what some want. A lot of good people have already departed from this forum for just that reason.

Calm down dear, it's only hi-fi

[pre65]

Hi-well i say !

If there is a reason why people have left this forum just read a few of Stuarts posts and then wonder why !


Philip

[Shian7]

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

Clive,
your quoting from theory and not from practice, the Pickering is a Pickering and not a Denon 103. As I said try the Ortofon in a high mass arm and then try the Pickering, I'm not interested in theory that does'nt come from practice. Such theory is arrogant and speaks more about trying to justify shelling out a lot of money for something.

Andrew, your always popping up sniping and then dissappearing from view. What you are actually saying is that your assertions are fine and mine are'nt, well I for one are'nt buying that arrogant BS.

What is it that you can't understand - thought is a function of space-time is'nt it - or are you going to dispute that too or should we try and resusitate Einstein to help you understand that point.

Thought can only ever operate in the past, it can never under any circumstances be sad to be 'in the moment' so there you are thinking about the music rather than actually listening to the music, this simply means that you are in fact 'behind' the music and are in fact listening to 'your interpretation' of the music and not the reality of the music, now that's easy to understand is'nt - that is if you have an open mind.

You should also be at pains to remind everyone that you also use a Kontrapunkt B, so your opinion is totally biased towards that cartridge is'nt it.
At least Clive did'nt make a stupid statement saying that 'the Pickering has no bass' and BTW you never informed the forum of exactly what type of arm you used the Pickering in, did you?

There have been far too many of these 'opinions' on this forum over the last year or so by those who have a vested interest in products they have bought and conducting so called tests that are set up to rubber stamp what they have purchased - this does no good for the reputation of this forum.

To even begin comparing one cartridge costing £69 (but with 2 spare cartridges) against one costing over 1000% more is itself ludicrous but to deliberately skew the result by using an unsuitable arm for one and not the other is absurd.

Clive is a business man, so he will know that in business, percentages are everything. It would be nice to see him set up a totally fair test using the correct arm for each cartridge and then giving at least a rough percentage ranking on each point - bass/treble/soundstage but that would make the Ortofon a very bad buy indeed.


I am going to use this thread on another forum and it will send the 'science believers' - all cables sound the same into a state of Nirvana and why?

Because you have proved their argument totally, that is what they say about those who buy expensive I/Cs/PCs (power cords) 'I've bought it so I've got to believe I've bought wisely - otherwise I might look like a wally'.

Andrew you posted sometime ago that you disputed what I said about the origins of the Celts - you were going to come back with a rebuttall - you did'nt , simply because you could'nt but neither did you come back with an apology. You disputed what I said about obesity not being tolerated in the NHS but you were a schoolboy in the 60's and a student in the 70s' so what would you know about the state of affairs in the NHS in those decades and what you were disputing was the knowledge of a professor of paediatrics who works throughout those decades in the NHS, namely my partner Angela - I really don't like someone using a public forum to try and make out that Angela is either a fool or a liar, she is neither but you most definately are a prat and a very insecure one at that.

If anyone and that means without exception wants to do an A/B test, should be required to make absolutely sure that they have conducted these tests on a scrupulously fair basis, so that others can make use of data and not self interested opinions - otherwise you end up with a pathetic bunch of mutual backslappers - or maybe that is what some want. A lot of good people have already departed from this forum for just that reason.

Blimey!!!...It sounds like your having a bit of a bad day

Try not to take things too seriously. It helps!!!

Best regards,
Mike.

[JerryT]

Originally Posted by andrew ivimey

Perhaps the differences which come to light on this forum are more about personalities than actual sound - intellectual assessment rather than involvement - I don't want to 'think' about music - I want to listen and be totally immersed in the music ie. - thought is not reality, only reality is real.'

So many fascinating assertions! Perhaps, perhaps perhaps. The quote above doesn't make much sense to me but never mind.

I am sure that my version of reality is quite different from some others.

I enjoyed Clive's original posting because it is clearly and gently put, thought provoking and interesting.

Now it has just boiled down to personalities and by implication, one is right and one is wrong.

Had we both world enough and time
this bollocks would be no crime.

I'm with Andrew. Different strokes for different folks - but right and wrong don't feature in subjective assessment!

Getting hot under the collar about other's perceptions is even less sensible than ranting about fashion and the youth of today - in my opinion. You may have other views of course.

Jerry

[Shane]

Here we go again. Yawn...

[pre65]

He started it sir !

[John T]

Stop stirring it Philip!

[Ianm2]

UMMM....thought is not reality?

reality is real.?

...have a look at philosphy and psychology, it says we perceive the world in our heads, our brains, and everything that comes in, comes in via the senses, and then our brain processes it to make sense, or lack of, so everything is in fact in our head, our thoughts, our intellect, reality isn't real, its how our brain thinks it to be.

personaly, I can get distracted, and enjoy the 'design'/intellectual side of the pursuit, and focus on equipment more, but its only there for one thing, to enjoy music, and I say it often, but I am sure the forums are inhabited with people in their signatures who just like to show off their stuff, and argue for the sake of it,

and also, to enjoy music, you don't need to buy more and more expensive stuff, cables, 1000s of cd players from the latest....

you can enjoy music on a midi system, and does these 1000s spent mean you are getting 1000s worth more enjoyment? I think not....

just an observation, not directed here....

einstein has now transmusted into energy, his matter has broken down into dust, and has become part of the soil, interesting if you view soil that way, whether he has reincarnated, is in heaven, which by definition doesn't exist, as you have to have hell, which can be here on earth,

or has simply dissolved into nothing for eternal blackness, without sense,

or has become another life form, a cat, another human, who can say?

I am a spiritual person of sort, and whilst believing in jesus, cannot accept that gods plan was for a select group of people, and damn the rest to eternal suffering, after all, it was he who 'created' the devil and if he has all knowledge, knew exactly what would happen before he did it.

however, I think ryanair man and adam crozier deserve eternal damnation along with a few others, as they are crooks of the worst arrogant kind


evolution doesn't matter, as part of the bible's word for day is a period of time, so he could have caused evolution, doesn't matter, its some other stuff I have reservations about.


stuart, what gets me about the nhs is that they are trying to limit more people for some things, and to keep the cash flowing to the parasite managers and management consultants who cream off 10 billion a year, and they keep on paying them, year after year, billions of our cash that could go on our health, and people suffer cos of it, and get victimised through no fault of own, not all obesity is individuals fault, just look at the supermarkets, full of sugar, everything is sugar sugar sugar, and additives.

any public project really is a money grabbing chance for them in this country, is so obvious, escalating costs all the time, country is a bunch of thieves living it up on the backs of the average strugglers and poor, and no one does anything about it, they don't care, seems fine to thieve off people and they just take it

400 plus thieving agencies and management consultant companies creaming off the nhs, 40p and 50p a mile petrol allowance they get, whilst we pay £1 a litre, no doubt to prop up their expenses, at the expense of our health, damn them to eternal damnation, too

poor stuart must've had a bad day, hope all is well now....

poor clive, he just wanted to talk about his cartridges,

I think we need another section for 'arguments' venting, flaming, and off topics, and keep hifi to hifi and all ancilliries there