So can anyone tell us the result of the phono shootout then??

[NickG]

(correct me if I'm wrong Nick) Thorsten does it at input.

No, you are not wrong, he does it both ways (Frank Zappa moment there), his first version, uses a 600R load, and his second version uses a 600R source. I use the 600R load.

Without wanting to diminish TL's input to the EQ600's there is a bit more history than that, I believe (but may well be wrong) that the real origin was this from the mid 70's

http://www.audio-consulting.ch/SchematicsLCRRIAA.htm

All I can say, is its all sounding astonishingly good now, I think the RIAA module is now run in (or at least more than it was at the shoot out), and the level of detail resolution is better than I have ever heard before. I also realised that the problems I have been having over the past years with occasional hardness creeping into the sound is not to be heard at all now. Remember that conversation we had Paul, about the down side of solid state CCS loads, I think that was the source of the hardness, and I have been hearing that every time I increased the transparency of the 211 driver stage.

[Paul Barker]

Yes I have to agree over the ccs. Perhaps if we had built Garry Pimms most complexed offerings we would like the result, perhaps not?

Yes I know Thorsten has a vested interest in S and B.

[Black Stuart]

Peter,
equipment placing is so important and when we get a new, s/hand piece we play around for hours, days sometimes but then tend to 'go to sleep'. Other changes in gear/ location come around and alter the whole balance of a system.

I have had a pair of Sextets for just over 5 years now and have always found that placing them about 12-18" from a side wall gives a good sound. I need to try them closer to the back wall (I don't have a any furniture problems in this apartment). My big problem here in Spain is the hardness of the walls - hard brick, covered with a skim coat of finishing plaster, the Spanish do't use bonding plaster. If I did'nt have the walls covered in Kelims and Flemish table carpets the sound would be unbearable.

Allen - I've lived and worked in 4 different countries and I have to tell you that humanity varies considerably all over the planet. There are concentrations of really negative self seeking people. Brighton eg. seems to attract huge nos. of these. Ask those who have experienced Rotterdam eg. what they think of the locals - the answers don't vary from one race to another and that includes other Nederlanders.

Walk into one pub and you can cut the atmosphere with a knife, go to another and find a really friendly welcoming attitude. Southern England has changed beyond all recognition over not that many years. Where I live now and also in Galicia for 3 years - I never have to press the alertness button when I leave my home - not to do so in town or country in the South is to invite trouble, by day or night. I used to be a keen cyclist but stopped cycling in the Sussex countryside at the back end of 85 - just far too dangerous. Here I get respect as a cyclist or a walker, the same goes for France.

Paul's mantra is excellant - applied to those who frequent this and the old b/b and in isolation, would give a completely false impression of the UK and especially the South. If the mentality of this b/b was a true reflection of life in the UK - I would'nt be living abroad, sad to say but true.

Black Stuart

[Richard]

Great thread, sounds like a good time was had!

Re. the speakers. Peter's designed a good sounding and practical speaker for many environments but it is in line with a philosophy that may not suit everyone.

Peter wrote,

I found out long ago (Heybrook HB3, HB1, Sextet etc) that putting speakers near the rear wall allows the speakers to drive the room better. You end up with a better defined and controlled bass because you tend to excite more of the room modes, not just the one or two major ones which are excited when you pull the speakers away from room boundaries. As most people can't be bothered to mess around too much with speaker positioning this type of design also enables them to achieve a good performance quickly, and experience few bass 'problems'.

For some unknown reason loudspeaker designers tend to make speakers which measure flat in an anechoic chamber. I prefer to make speakers which sound tonally balanced in rooms.

Whilst this is true and the speakers do sound good they may not suit people used to a "free space" set up. I can understand some of the comments made as they concur with what we heard at Bristol. Speakers against a wall do drive the room (those little computer 5.1 subs show that very effectively!) but the bass goes no lower and has no more definition - it is just louder - and the trade off is no image depth, just a ball of sound between them. Given the space and with suitable speakers, pulling the speakers off the wall makes for a fussier set-up but can be more rewarding imo.

AFAIK all speaker makers who measure in a chamber 1) allow for in-room bass lift and 2) recommend a siting ie close to wall or free space. There's nothing wrong with using a chamber and the likes of Rogers, Kef, etc have produced good results in the past. I'm sure Peter's experience would allow a decent job to be done "in room" but it will depend on his preference and room.

Rich

[James D]

Free space measuring is an interesting thing to acheive. I remember doing some free space measuring with Alan Shaw of Harbeth and he put the speakers on a pole lift in the middle of a field that raised then 18 feet into the air with the microphone 2m away on another pole lift. Impressive but only useable on a still air day...

James

[Richard]

"the hills are alive......" he he yes, given still air, free air equates to an anechoic chamber I think for measuring. I seem to recall some speaker books suggesting a similar thing for measuring your speakers in the garden. Bet the neighbours would love that.

Should say my references to "free space" were within the confines of a room, not for measuring, as compared with back-to-wall positioning.

Rich

[petercom]

Sorry, Richard, you have missed the point.

You can't design a speaker in an anechoic chamber and allow for room bass lift if you don't specify exactly where the speaker is going to be placed to provide the bass lift you allowed for. A speaker designed to be placed clear of walls or corners is entirely at the mercy of whatever room modes it encounters. Without measuring the listener's room you can't design the speaker for an even bass response and natural sounding tonal balance.

Tell the listener to put the speakers within 10cm of a rear wall and he knows what to do. If you design for that position then you get two benefits - the customer doesn't complain about poor bass and the efficiency of the speaker is higher due to the 3dB boost below 300Hz.

I have practical experience of this. The HB2 was designed for free space positioning and the phone never stopped ringing with customers who complained of over heavy bass or not enough bass or lumpy bass or overdamped bass. When the HB1 caught on I can't remember one customer ever complaining about the bass except where the occasional one would try placing them away from walls not having read the instructions.

The aspect of stereo imagery is a myth due to poor speaker design. Ask those who attended the phono shoot out whether there was just a 'ball of sound' - especially those who remember the excerpt from The Wall.

[Rob042]

"Tell the listener to put the speakers within 10cm of a rear wall and he knows what to do. If you design for that position then you get two benefits - the customer doesn't complain about poor bass and the efficiency of the speaker is higher due to the 3dB boost below 300Hz."

that doesnt take into account the rest of the room, doors, windows, furniture,ceiling height.... all of which could effect the over all sound -hence we have been informed by those in the world of knowing NOT to place speakers agains walls and to have them placed in open space.

Rob

[petercom]

But that's what I'm saying - if you put the speakers against the walls then you have defined the acoustic space for the speakers. The rest of the room matters much less with the exception of reflections off side walls in the vicinity of the speakers, and that is the same wherever you put them.

Bring the speakers into the room and you are at the mercy of every single aspect of the room furnishings.

[Richard]

Peter,

I understand room differences may affect a speaker less if it's designed to go against a wall. That doesn't mean that a speaker designed to stand off the wall won't ultimately be better.

I said, "Given the space and with suitable speakers, pulling the speakers off the wall makes for a fussier set-up but can be more rewarding imo."

You appear to have made a decision based on commercial findings a while ago. It may well have been the thing to do for business reasons and many customers. I found my preference based on listening some years before that.

Rich