New member's

[Shane]

Originally Posted by Richard

Language is clumsy and all the bolt ons and tools have been introduced to fine tune it and convey the message (whatever it is) more clearly.

Ah, don't forget the apostrophe is also used in place of missing letters to enable us to more nearly write as we speak. Thus CD's might be correct if it is meant Compact Disks, or should it then be C'D's? There's one for the ultimate pendant competition I fink

CD's is only correct if discussing something belonging to a CD, eg "the CD's case is broken".

Strictly speaking, since CD is an abbreviation it should be C.D. Does the plural then become C.D.s and the possessive C.D.'s?

[andrew ivimey]

I don't think language is at all clumsy. I think the misuse of language is down to the way it is used by we, the people. Language is not as simple as, say, using a screwdriver but there are rules and, when applied, work well.

I fully realise the job of the apostrophe to denote a missing letter(s) but originally the missing letter was also involved in the possessive nature of the thing.

e.g.

Kinges sweord - the sword of the king. (no one puts in an apostrophe in the word sweord (medieval English).

Now as for CDs - well that is how it should be. There is no need even to use C.D.s. The abbreviation C.D. is also correct however just that we can't be bothered and the sense of the thing, the 'CD' or the CDs are preserved. We should be happy that it is actually very simple - Hooray for the apostrophe - it is easy to apply.

[Richard]

Well it may not be clumsy in the hands of Emily Bronte but I can assure you it is in mine

Ask yourself how many times you've been misunderstood on a bb f'rinstance. Facts are quite easy to convey but emotion such as humour is not unless it's very obvious I suppose. Hence the smilies are all to do with emotion rather than being pictures of circuits, valves, girls, cars or liquorice allsorts.

Shane is now running a close second in the Ultimate Pendant competition

[andrew ivimey]

If I am misunderstood, I suggest it is because the reader is incapable, for whatever reason (and I can think of several), of understanding well crafted and often, even beautiful, prose.

Humour is indeed very difficult to convey on a BB and it helps enormously if the reader has variously A) got drunk with B) slept with C) had children by, with or from D) known well for several decades and / or perhaps a few other, shared conditions with the writer. Even then the whole thing can still go wrong because of a misplaced comma here, the wanton overuse of the semi-colon and indeed the horrible apostrophe being applied where only a slab of melting butter should - on the carrots!

It is a little appreciated fact that facts are not (always) easy to convey - refer to the use of the apostrophe again. We could here be talking about carrots and if we use carrot's this requires that the carrots own something. The gorcer's carrots have long green leaves. I would concede but can one really apply the concept ownership to a popuar and much eaten vegetable that belongs to the parsley family and 'grows in gardens and in the wild all over the world'? - note: I couldn't resist the last bit in parentheses because there is a particular piece of software used to verify the individual patient's prescription of a hearing aid that uses a (very long) sentence about 'The Carrot' in order to derive a more accurate 'real ear' measurement. oooo-er.

Now in answer to my rhetorical question above. Of course a thing can have ownership. The dog's testicles - not a thing? okay. The boat's crew, and so on. But if I hadn't persevered I wouldn't have continued to bore you, would I!?

[Shane]

Originally Posted by Richard

Well it may not be clumsy in the hands of Emily Bronte but I can assure you it is in mine

Ask yourself how many times you've been misunderstood on a bb f'rinstance. Facts are quite easy to convey but emotion such as humour is not unless it's very obvious I suppose. Hence the smilies are all to do with emotion rather than being pictures of circuits, valves, girls, cars or liquorice allsorts.

Shane is now running a close second in the Ultimate Pendant competition

That would make me the Penultimate Pedant. I rather like that.

[Shane]

Although the Ultimate Pedant would excoriate me for using unnecessary capital letters, and now for using a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence. I offer the defence of poetic license.

And if all this doesn't deter new members, then nothing will.

[andrew ivimey]

ooooooooooooo I don't mind the capital letters in this example!

A conjunction, perhaps and I think poets do it all the time (at the beginning of a sentence, well okay line/verse ...

'But at my back I hear
Time's winged chariot hurrying near'

If we go on like this Lynne Truss might join up! Although that would be a first she might also point out that such use of 'although' is perfectly all right at the beginning of a sentence as its use is as a discourse connective so, of course, is acceptable.

maybe.

Now the pain in all the diodes down my left side is beginning to get me down.

[Matthew Snell]

I think you'll find that a "C'D's" is probably a model in Citroen's range. If it wasn't before, it will be soon.

Loving all this grammar stuff. Does anyone remember this old chestnut? You have to try to punctuate the following sentence:

Richard where Bob had had had had had had had had had had had the examiner's approval.

(And yes, it can be done!)

I've done the apostrophe for you to give you a head start.

[andrew ivimey]

I can see point of two (or three) hads but no, surely its just verbiage! The examiner should be shot! The apostrophe is - and always should be - easy :-)

oh all right then .... one possibility ...

'Richard! (exclamation mark or comma) where Bob had (could use semi-colon here for the list but its just daft!) 'had had had had had had had had' had had the examainer's approval'.

I doubt if Richard was still listening.

[pre65]

How about

Richard, where Bob had had "had", had had "had had". "Had had" had had the examiner's approval.

Is it any wonder that so many people don't bother with grammar ?

And to the pedants, I know there should not be a gap between the question mark and the letter before, but that's my way, it looks better.