Pickering XV-15 vs Ortofon Kontrapunkt B

[Clive]

Following some postings on this BB a few months ago I bought a Pickering XV-15 cartridge for £69 (including 2 spare stylii) from ebay. I wanted a spare cartridge and given the enthusiastic reports I thought it worth a punt. So how does the XV-15 sound vs my Ortofon Kontrapunkt B? Of course the list price of the MC Kontra is more than 10x that of the MM Pickering. Some will recall I've had suspension issues with my Kontra, I'm now on my 4th Kontra B, all replacements have been hassle free and under warranty - certainly not ideal but at least the customer service has been good.

Running the Pickering in a spare wand using Vic's Ladegaard type arm allowed me swap wand/cartridge combinations quickly, the deck is a Garrard 301 on a Slatedeck plinth. The Pickering was run without the brush and with a tiny amount of blutack to clamp the stylus mount to the cartridge.

The instant view I formed of the Pickering is that it's not at all bad. Tunes bounce along in a tight and pleasant manner. There was nothing that I could point to that was clearly "wrong".

So how about some more critical listening....relative to the Kontra B? Ultimately imaging is a touch flattened, more the way my CDP presents images. Vocal focus is quite wide, the Kontra presents a tighter focus. Bass is bouncy with good timing but there seems to be little truly deep bass, my 15 inch subwoofers sounded underused. Treble seemed to work fine with my cabling - MMs can be sensitive to cable capacitance.

Now that I've had more time to listen I feel that the tight, bouncy and drive behind the XV-15 is at least partly due to the parts of the music that are missing. The sound is somewhat uncluttered because a lot of the harmonics and fine detail is not there so you end up listening the fundamentals, the nuances that provide depth and emotion just don't exist. To use the classic reviewer phrase, "the Pickering's faults are sins of omission", this makes it fine to listen to. That the Kontra B is better is simply not open to question, whether the Kontra B is worth 10x the cost of the Pickering is much harder to answer. In the context of my system the Kontra B is worth having, in a system that portrays less atmosphere and emotion then the Pickering could be a wise choice. I'm very pleased to have the Pickering as a spare cartridge, it is certainly "listenable" and one that I can use with dodgy old records. Oh yes, one more thing, the Pickering does highlight cracke and pop more than the Kontra.

[steve s]

Very interesting clive..

i for quite a few years have had an old v15 as a spare cart.. but really never wanted to use it
the trouble i find, is once you get used to the 'good things' and cartridges being one of them you don't really want to go back to any thing lesser...
and the same goes for the old DHT's.. and good quality drivers...
like every thing, you need to match things to your system of course
but my view is once your into DIY.. the money you save you can spend on something else you can't make...

steve

[Black Stuart]

Good post Clive.

As to whether the Pickering does deep bass or not I cannot say because as good as the Heybrook Sextets are, they simply are'nt capable of really deep bass, I'm aware of that every time I use my modded Bada h/amp. In fact a good h/amp and cans will wipe the floor with any speaker based system.

As to the comment about noise, you'll have to look elsewhere in your system for the answer to that one. Even before I bought the Pickering I was aware of how quiet and noise free my Kenwood DD was, the Pickering did'nt change that presentation in any way. Is your Ortofon masking noise from the rest of your system?

Perhaps others who have the Pickering should chip in here about surface noise to clarify this position.

I am almost certainly going to buy the Pickering hybrid for £125 and used with the Cinemag step-ups, which many Americans/Canadians prefer to the S&Bs should prove interesting. I would have thought that for relatively little extra, this was the cartridge you should have tried. All the reviews on this point up that it is more than a match for MCs that cost considerably more.

To have M1V of a cartridge is a very good reason for me not to consider it at all. Now I may make an offer for a little used Shelter 501 - the only thing stopping me is - variable manufacture.

[Clive]

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

As to the comment about noise, you'll have to look elsewhere in your system for the answer to that one. Even before I bought the Pickering I was aware of how quiet and noise free my Kenwood DD was, the Pickering did'nt change that presentation in any way. Is your Ortofon masking noise from the rest of your system?

Well....only if the extra information from the Ortofon is masking surface noise
Seriously though, it's probably more to do with the records I was playing and their heritage. Some were 2nd hand, noise will very much depend on what position previous stylii tracked the records. The FG80 vs elliptical profiles will behave differently but noise wasn't a serious issue.

Clive

[Black Stuart]

So Clive,
are you going to try the Pickering XLZ-7500-S.

This hybrid is a totally different thing - it's frequency range, the stylus, it's ouput.

BTW - why don't you use the same LPs that you would use your Ortofon with, after all it was a new XV-15 was'nt it and could'nt your views on it's ability to retreive info be hugely affected by this.

Unless shoot outs are conducted on a truly level playing field, they don't have much relevance do they.

This is exactly what Noel Keywood did with his infamous article comparing a DD with his Garrard - I mean supporting a TT on bits of 2 x 2 and then expecting it to perform against a Garrard he had spent serious money on re-plinthing.

Use your best vinyl for the Pickering and then come back with an opinion. Better still buy the hybrid and do a shoot-out.

Tell you what - you buy the Pickering hybrid and making an allowance for it being nominally s/hand and I'll buy it from you, how does that sound.

[Clive]

Stuart, I did use the same LPs for my listening, some of them were 2nd hand a little crackly even after cleaning, others were pristine and quiet with both cartridges. Swapping arm wands was so easy with Vic's Ladegaard that comparisons were simple. The hybrid is interesting but I'm heading for a really busy time at work with a new job so I'm going to have to just listen to music from time to time and not tinker too much!

[Ianm2]

I like the pickering, its a steal, tracks like a train, too, I suspect that mc's aren't inherently superior, and what we hear is to do with cost, ie if it costs more, usually it will be better.

the pickering afaik is a very old design, probably done by hand, whilst the new ortofon's are computer designed, so technically will be better, and you will be hearing techincal vs. old school, which still can be very good and have more 'character'.

I did find what clive found, bit of surface noise, but for the cash, I also have a 7500 that I paid a bit for, sounds quite good, but never tried it properly yet, I also have pickering/qed transistor battery step up, which is jolly good, very quiet, clear and forward, which I like, occasionally peaky.

Interested to know about those step ups, stuart, bit of an interest of mine.

They will have to be good to beat the altec/peerless ones I have, someone said they are better, but these are the best I have heard, better than ortofon's t3000, totally flat, no peaking, ortofon v. clear, but a bit 'loose' with it.

[Black Stuart]

Clive,
your second statement contradicts your first - so the Pickering and the Ortofon are the same re. surface noise.

As you know the Pickering needs a medium/high mass arm to strut it's stuff, this the Ladegaard arm definately is'nt. Have you tried your Ortofon in a high mass arm - it would'nt like it at all would it?

Used in an arm with which it has obvious synergy, there is loads of detail and the bass response is much better.

Ian, I think that you have described the differences beautifully - which cartridge will 'actually' be more involving, which will have the more character and let's not forget that many simply will not be able to afford £550-750 for a cartridge and shelling out another £500 + every two years.

Cinemags - there are many in the States and Canada that have used many different step-ups, including the S&Bs and prefer the Cinemags, I can't get the sods to give me a price for posting to Spain, probably because I refuse to be ripped off by UPS/FedEx and all those other bandits.

I'm glad you gave the PLZ the thumbs up as does Bauzace on another forum. I'm going to try both and sell (maybe) the step-up I rate 2nd.

7500 - Ian, see my comments above, you need to use all the Pickerings in medium/high mass arms - otherwise they simply won't give of their best.

Alternatively can I transfer my offer from Clive to you re. the 7500.

When I hear a sound I really like, I stick with it. I have no ideas why the Mundorf-Audiophilers sound so good used with Russian k75 poly in oils but they do and like the XV-15 I may lose a little detail but the involvement is tremendous.

Perhaps the differences which come to light on this forum are more about personalities than actual sound - intellectual assessment rather than involvement - I don't want to 'think' about music - I want to listen and be totally immersed in the music ie. - thought is not reality, only reality is real.

[Clive]

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

your second statement contradicts your first - so the Pickering and the Ortofon are the same re. surface noise.

Let me clarify.....on quiet records both cartridges are quiet. On noisy records the Ortofon is quieter than the Pickering. It's not a big issue so let's not get hung up on it.

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

As you know the Pickering needs a medium/high mass arm to strut it's stuff, this the Ladegaard arm definately is'nt. Have you tried your Ortofon in a high mass arm - it would'nt like it at all would it?

Yes the Ladegaard is low mass but it seems that this isn't an issue with such an arm. 103's work very well with the arm (so I'm assured by those who have tried, including Vic). Therefore the Pickering should be fine too.

[andrew ivimey]

Perhaps the differences which come to light on this forum are more about personalities than actual sound - intellectual assessment rather than involvement - I don't want to 'think' about music - I want to listen and be totally immersed in the music ie. - thought is not reality, only reality is real.'

So many fascinating assertions! Perhaps, perhaps perhaps. The quote above doesn't make much sense to me but never mind.

I am sure that my version of reality is quite different from some others.

I enjoyed Clive's original posting because it is clearly and gently put, thought provoking and interesting.

Now it has just boiled down to personalities and by implication, one is right and one is wrong.

Had we both world enough and time
this bollocks would be no crime.