ESL info

Hi I am new here and I am interested in audio and birds. I have a soft spot for planar designs. Here are a couple of links that have a fair bit of info on ESL speakers http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=300 and http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=305 regards moray james.

[Toppsy]

Hi Moray,
At last another electrostatic fan on this forum.

How is your build coming along? Interesting you are to use a sub for lower end. How successful have you been on seamlessly integrating the subs with the panels.

I run ER Audio ESL speakers. These are kit ESLs for DIY builder. I experimented with active subs through active crossover with my ESLIII speakers, but have not successfully got a seamless transition from panels to subs. However, my ACORN ESLs (see link below) produce wonderful deep and detailed bass not to warrant the need of a sub whoofer.

Link to the ER Audio web site is:

http://www.eraudio.com.au/

Is it possible you could open a new thread in the Loudspeakers section on the progress you have made with your ESL build?

Regards

Colin

Hello

I'm also an ESL fan, I've got several pairs of Quad ESL57s and two pairs of 63s and no room! I've replaced all the panels on one pair.
When you say planar designs are you also thinking of the non-electrostatic ones too? Is it the Magneplanar that uses magnetic paste on the diaphragms?

Richard

[Gerry]

Welcome Moray. I'm also into planar speakers...three pairs of Maggies!

Richard, the Maggies have a Mylar film with wire coils glued to it with 3M Super-77 spray and a covering of Milloxane. Not really a magnetic paste.

Regards

Toppsy: your photo of your speakers looks great do you have any other pictures? I have set up a number of ESL systens with subs and not had all that muvh trouboe with intigration but you do need to be prepared to play with all the variables like phase and position. In most cases I find that people have their sub running up way to high so they get big bumps in the response 60 80 120 Hz are common. I have had a lot of success with the subs (stereo work the best) positioned at the back end of the room in line with or behind the seating position (you can play with the phase switch here). One of the other things that I have found to be an issue is one that most folks do not consider or if they do dismiss as a non issue (till they try it) is to add significant inductance to the output of the high voltage supply. This is best done right before the actual connection to the diaphragm. The least expensive way to ad a choke is to buy some surplus one henry chokes as there are very cheap to buy. You will not have to worry at all about current rating with these chokes as long as you have 10 meg ohms of load resistor in front of them. The chokes can be as small as an inch in diametre. You will need to use ten (or more if you have the room) in series each one physically spaced fron the nest and have them each rotated 90 degrees from one to the next (l - l - l - l.....). What I think this multi chamber choke does is this, if there is any ripple reaching the diaphragm through the high voltage supply the choke will smooth it out and if there are (and there are) any irregularities in the spacing of the stators (which cause imbalances in drive) and when you play bass the diaphragm will become modulated and this will cause a back EMF into the HT supply. The large inductor stops this from happening. What you will hear is that the pannel will now sound smoother and more cohearent with far more impact slam and punch which is especially heard in the 100-130 Hz range. The thin bright quality that many dislike about stat panels goes away and intrigration to a sub becomes easy to achieve. I dont think that the intigration problem lies with the sub I think it is inhearent to the panel. these kind of small chokes can be purchased for a dollar each plus shipping and they are easy to assemble and install as long as ther is toom for them. You can experiment with any old large value choke you have at hand but i will tell you that building a multi chamber composite choke as discribed will sound much better. But for experimenting you only need one large ten henry choke (or larger) and you can use it to supply both of your stat panels at the same time and so have a listen for the effect and decide for yourself if you want to build dedicated multichamber chokes for your self. Regards Moray James.

Richard: I like ESL's first and foremost but years ago I codesigned and manufactured a planar magnetic speaker which used a conventional voice coil to drive a single planar design speaker. The company name was Highwood Audio but the product was distributed and sold under the Sumo line out of California. The best way to think of that design is as a purly mechanical implementation of Quad's 63 principal. Simple in concept but harder done than said. Regarding your 63's that you seem to have in quantity about your home you should set a pair up for a listen again and then rotate them 90 degrees so that the bases face the side wall rather than the floor. In this position you will discover that they will have far better horizontal dispersion and will image better. This is because the high frequency section of the panels is oblong and when the speaker is in the normal vertical position that oval section is wider than it is high. So when you flip the speakers side ways the axis of this section of the panel is rotated to being vertical (taller than it is wide) and this accounts for the improved horizontal dispersion.
Maggies are planar but they have a vioce coil of a straight length of wire attached directly to the diaphragm. The voice coil wire runs up and down the diaphragm and across the diaphragm. The voice coil wire runs in between rows of plastiform magnets that are mounted to a perforated steel plate which is space off of the diaphragm by about a millimetre or so. The poles of the magnets (physically on either side of the wire on the diaphragm) alternate so that as the voice coil runs up and then down the diaphragm the orientation of the magnets poles with respect to the current flowing in the voice coil is always maintained. Some maggie modles also use true ribbons for their tweeter sections. Regards Moray James.

Gerry: right the maggie is a moving coil design. The mass of the bass sections copper voice coil is what accounts for maggies ability to make bass. While many have repaired maggies with 3-M spray 77 the factory adhesive is a uv cure product. There have been changes over the years with respect to the adhesives used and I am not sure exactly what specific product they use now. As mentioned in my thread at diyhifi.org I have a series of ESL panels under construction. Events over the last year have placed this project on hold but it has not been abandoned. When the project resumes I will post here for those who might be interested. I can say that I am a believer in ESL hybrid designs. I also like the idea of dipole dynamic subs with dipoles stats. I look forward to learning about the experiences of the members here. Regards Moray James.

Hello moray

Welcome to the group!
Thanks for the suggestions about the 63s, i'll give it a go (I'll have to make some room first) what you said about the chokes is also of interest.

Regards

Richard

[Toppsy]

Hi Moray,
your comments are interested and I have posted them to the designer of the ER Audio kits for his comments.

Perhaps I was not too clear when I said I have not 100% successfully integrated the subs with my ESLIII speakers. What I meant is one of timing. T Whatever I have tried the cone subwoofer always sounds that little behind the timing of the fast reacting panel response. This has been commented on by a musician friend of mine who has a very critical ear when it comes to musical timing. This is in spite the fact the woofers (10" Peerless XLS), one in each cabinet below the panels and driven by 200W MOSFET amps. Crossover from panels to subs via an active crossover network.

The way I have got around this is to build the ACORN ESLs. These have sufficient deep convincing bass so a sub is not needed at all. And of course one does not have any issues with a slower reacting cone driver.

I think it may be worth moving this thread over to the Loadspeakers section. How about it Peter / administrators?

Colin

[Toppsy]

Moray,

I have attached a photo of my ACORN ESL - Three way design with stacked pair of panels. My avatar is a photo of my ESLIII before the front cloth was added so you can see the panels. The other attached photo is the ESLIII with subs installed.

Regards

Colin


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ESLIII.jpg