FLAC vs MP3 bitrates

[Richard]

Hi everyone,

Has anyone done a comparison between FLAC (or CD or other loss-less format) and MP3 at various bitrates?

I'm presently playing around with Flacsquisher which converts files from FLAC to MP3 and allows conversion to the familiar different Constant Bit Rates and also the newer different Variable Bit Rates.

Squeezebox Touch plays both and FLAC fine so last night I compared FLAC to the same album MP3 compressed at -V3 which gives a VBR around 160kbps.

There was certainly a loss of air and sparkle and a degree of realism was lost with the MP3 played on a reasonable hifi and I wonder at what level if any that MP3 would become very close to FLAC?

I've done more encodings of the same album at VBR -V0 which shows as around 256kbps and -V5 which is around 128kbps and will compare these later on.

I'm looking firstly to seeing how good MP3 has become and secondly at what level to compress all my FLACs to to make an acceptable portable library for phone, car etc.

Has anyone done similar tests, comments, advice etc appreciated

[bikerhifinut]

I wonder if you are comparing apples with oranges Richard?
i have a lot of MP3 at 320kBs on the wifes brennan thingy and also I listen to BBC R3at 320kbs on the 'tinternet radio and thats Mp3 coded. Its mostly ok but lets the side down in particular on stuff like applause on live concerts and also i reckon drums and cymbals sound grotty.
I think FLAC and similar lossless codecs are leaps and bounds ahead of MP3.

Heck I think CD is better with a decent DAC unless you are going to the proper Hi Res stuff.

For what its worth.

[Richard]

I am indeed Andy, as one is loss-less and the other loses something, but my interest is in how little MP3 VBR loses and at what level it becomes noticeable.

Anyone had a serious AB comparison on their usual hifi?

At what bit rate are the newer MP3 encodings good enough to reproduce all the parts that matter or can they still not rival loss-less for quality?

Has anyone found any compatibility problems playing MP3 VBR in the car, phone etc?

[bikerhifinut]

Originally Posted by Richard

I am indeed Andy, as one is loss-less and the other loses something, but my interest is in how little MP3 VBR loses and at what level it becomes noticeable.

Anyone had a serious AB comparison on their usual hifi?

At what bit rate are the newer MP3 encodings good enough to reproduce all the parts that matter or can they still not rival loss-less for quality?

Has anyone found any compatibility problems playing MP3 VBR in the car, phone etc?

Thats the nub of it Richard.
So many car ICE systems will only support old fashioned MP3 via their USB input, our Nissan Note was a case in point. Oh goody I thought, A USB socket I'll plug my Creative ZEN in. No Dice as I was using a more modern MP4 AAC codec via my windows media system interface thingy wotsit.
So if its for car use unless you are using a separate Personal DAP (Doncha just hate all these new acronyms) You may find you are stuck with MP3 and probably a maximum bitrate of 320kbs. Unless car radios have got cleverer recently. Not that it matters a jot in a tin can with wheels, and if you listen to DAB radio you are getting MP2 quality.
I can't comment about using MP3 and other file compression formats in a domestic "quality" system as I just don't see the point when i have a sizeable Vinyl collection and a fair amount of CD's. It's a medium too far for me.
I do understand your dilemma though. I might yet get off my a**e and sort out the old lappy and try proper hi res files via the rega DAC. I just haven't seen the point of it yet.

[Ali Tait]

Given a good recording, I think most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference from a FLAC and 320kps mp3.

[Phil Y]

I have a pocket MP3 player, a Philips Gogear RaGa. I mainly use it for listening to podcasts but I do have some music on it, recorded at a mix of 240 and 320 KBs. A little whille back, out of curiosity, I loaded on a few tracks in WAV. They sounded clearly superior, much crisper and cleaner with just more "joie de vivre" and this through pretty modest Sennheiser PX200s.

Phil.

[FreddieT]

Richard - MP3 is always going to lose out to a lossless codec like FLAC, since by the nature of the beast it has to throw away information it thinks we can't hear. That said, it can sound OK in the car. I use 256kb/s vbr in my wife's car (like Andy's her media player can't handle AAC, more on this in a moment) which is probably as good as most FM radio stations if not a little better than some. Better than DAB.

In my car I use 256kb/s AAC files (Apple) as I do think that AAC is a superior lossy codec (to MP3 and way better than MP2 [DAB]) at the same bitrates.

However, even on my titchy 'running' portable (Sandisk Sansa) which is the smallest thing I could find that plays FLAC (up to 16/48) the differences are noticeable. I checked with my daughter to eliminate any bias (I've bought it so it's going to be better sort of thing) and she rated the files (FLAC, AAC, MP3) in the same order as me. She then promptly swapped her MP3s on her phone for AAC. The differences are even more clearly defined on my AK120 portable but I'd have to be even more barking to run with that in tow!

Mind you, she also spots my hi res stuff on the LInn DS (but hates to admit it) and has hearing above 13kHz (I wish!).

Andy - sorry for being a pedant, the BBCs HQ streams are 320kb/s AAC streams, sampled at 48kHz (interestingly). Worth trying some high res stuff and the Rega (I used one with a Squeezebox before the Linn arrived - damn good for the money).

Personally I rate vinyl above all else commonly available, but 24/176 rips of the black stuff are pretty damn good to my ears. And others who have heard my efforts.

Now DSD - another story.

F.

[Richard]

Well I had a listen over the last couple of days. For the record I'm using a desktop PC as server to Squeezebox Touch into Arcam IRDAC then Quad 34/606 into Castle Conway 3 speakers. I also tried the near-field 2.1 system hooked to the desktop computer.

Bottom line is I agree with you all

Andy, Freddie (thanks for that I'll digest!), I went for MP3 rather than 4 or AAC etc as it's been around for 20 years and almost everything can use it. I wasn't sure about the later VBR version but I've not yet found a problem.

I agree with Ali that most folk might not notice MP3 320 being played if they walked into a room. I found it warm full bodied and pleasant. It probably flatters more bad recordings than it holds back good ones, as it doesn't screech or add audible distortion, but it lacks resolution.

Here I agree with Phil that “something” which makes the sound lifelike is missing with MP3. Switch to FLAC or CD and it's back. Pinning it down, with MP3 I found myself noticing the dominance of the loud parts in a mix; they would drown out cymbals, guitar strings, breathing, echo, etc, and the whole sound would appear as one; less interesting, not unpleasant but the air and sparkle is lost, ambience gone, and my interest wanders.

Surprisingly (to me) this was also evident on the computer system. FLAC was clearly better but pinning down the reasons would have been harder without having heard them in the main system.

I tried 5 file formats; FLAC, MP3 CBR320, VBR-V0(circa 256), VBR-V3(circa 160) and VBR-V5(circa 128) switching between them sometimes in sequence and sometimes one extreme to the other. Switching was near instant, using the remote for SBT, to the same track again in a different file format. All MP3 files were encoded from a common FLAC file and the tags were left the same.

Basically, the more bits the better. The lowest -V5 MP3 rate was much worse than the best 320 but is probably fine as background listening. It was close between MP3 -V0 and 320 but there is still a difference so I will go 320 when possible for MP3 but the middling -V3 looks good for car and phone as it saves a lot of file space. FLAC was a big jump up in quality even from 320 with a difference like that between the best and lowest MP3.

[Greg.]

Nice investigation, Richard.

I can't add a lot to the discussion other than to say in all simplicity, even DAB on the car radio is inferior to VHF on the same system.

Regarding lossless streaming, as I now listen to much of my music through my RPi system fed from Tidal, I am very happy to pay the extra for a service which offers the music in 'apparently' high resolution presentation. Certainly There is a multitude of music to sample and the £20 a month is much less than what I was previously spending on music media. Still love my TT and vinyl, but as a second source, Tidal into my RPi does it for me....at present.......hope to be moving onto Roon very soon.

Originally Posted by Richard

Well I had a listen over the last couple of days. For the record I'm using a desktop PC as server to Squeezebox Touch into Arcam IRDAC then Quad 34/606 into Castle Conway 3 speakers. I also tried the near-field 2.1 system hooked to the desktop computer.

Bottom line is I agree with you all

Andy, Freddie (thanks for that I'll digest!), I went for MP3 rather than 4 or AAC etc as it's been around for 20 years and almost everything can use it. I wasn't sure about the later VBR version but I've not yet found a problem.

I agree with Ali that most folk might not notice MP3 320 being played if they walked into a room. I found it warm full bodied and pleasant. It probably flatters more bad recordings than it holds back good ones, as it doesn't screech or add audible distortion, but it lacks resolution.

Here I agree with Phil that “something” which makes the sound lifelike is missing with MP3. Switch to FLAC or CD and it's back. Pinning it down, with MP3 I found myself noticing the dominance of the loud parts in a mix; they would drown out cymbals, guitar strings, breathing, echo, etc, and the whole sound would appear as one; less interesting, not unpleasant but the air and sparkle is lost, ambience gone, and my interest wanders.

Surprisingly (to me) this was also evident on the computer system. FLAC was clearly better but pinning down the reasons would have been harder without having heard them in the main system.

I tried 5 file formats; FLAC, MP3 CBR320, VBR-V0(circa 256), VBR-V3(circa 160) and VBR-V5(circa 128) switching between them sometimes in sequence and sometimes one extreme to the other. Switching was near instant, using the remote for SBT, to the same track again in a different file format. All MP3 files were encoded from a common FLAC file and the tags were left the same.

Basically, the more bits the better. The lowest -V5 MP3 rate was much worse than the best 320 but is probably fine as background listening. It was close between MP3 -V0 and 320 but there is still a difference so I will go 320 when possible for MP3 but the middling -V3 looks good for car and phone as it saves a lot of file space. FLAC was a big jump up in quality even from 320 with a difference like that between the best and lowest MP3.

[Richard]

Thanks Greg. Are you looking towards the new MQA service? If so do let us know how it goes

I've found putting my CDs into FLAC has made playing them so much easier that I'm listening to stuff I'd forgotten I had or can't even remember buying!

FLAC seems a great way to archive as they can then be transcribed to other formats. I had a play with MP4/AAC yesterday using the fre:ac converter.