Technics SL120 KO in round one sensation!

[NealG]

Not having the balls to violate my precious today, I decided to let the SL120 into the ring against the Lenco. It was an easy decision, the Rega and Reca combo. where an easy transplant onto the SL120.

After tons of fiddling with washers and mat combinations for best sound quality I got to hear a DD for the first time…..

Not bad was the first impression, however, the more I listened the more I became confused. I couldn’t work this deck out. At times it sounded great but at other times it sounded poor. It seemed to do everything right, timing, depth, space etc. etc. yet, it sounded so un-involving. My 9 year old summed it up well, ‘it sounds un-exciting’. There seems to be no romance or emotion to the presentation this coming straight from the Lenco. It did have a smoother top end and overall a smoother balance but his seemed to rob the emotion from music. One upside, it came with an SME 3009 which means my SME309/KB will bolt straight in. Also, it shows that the Rega and Reca can perform well IE smooth without any nasties, so some of the negatives I heard on the Lenco are most likely down to the plinth and arm/cart decoupling rather than the arm/cart combo.

[andrew ivimey]

Neal, its me or your third paragraph. I'm not sure what you are saying,

my lenco is not set up right but with rb250 and denon 103 it sounds very involving, huge bass and well, a coloured and subjectively very enjoyable sound. With the deck I have listened to bits and bobs of all sorts of music and been vitally interested in listening.

but it ain't right.

Is your sl120 the beeznees or not? Nine year olds have better hearing than we do and they don't know the rubbish / baggage we carry. Was your child advocating lenco or technics and sme with everything? I may be a bit slow on this, sorry.

Further if comparison is to be made; what are the strengths and weaknesses of your KB vs Reca - how similar are they?

[NealG]

Hi Andrew,

You're confused over my post, understandable, 'cause I'm confused over the SL!

Essentially it lacks involvement IME. I find my mind wandering when I'm listening to it, it doesnt hold my attention, nothing in its presentation is captivating. Yet in Hi-Fi terms it's fine and the Rega/Reca combo sounds clean unlike on the Lenco where the treble is a little masked and ragged. It's like the deck is the turntable equivalent of a SS power amp!

However, to blame the deck outright is wrong though, the arm may not be ideally mated to the chassis. I used the existing SME base plate with a couple of oversize washers to get the arm fitted. The mat used also seems to have a big impact on sound I'm finding.

Nine year old was prompted to listen after the Lenco and made the comment about the SL.

The KB is streets ahead of the Reca, it has more depth, detailing & insight. It goes lower and is really sweet in the treble. I'm in the process of getting a Rondo as one of the decks will still be used in my office.

[Black Stuart]

Hi Neal,
I don't recognize your description of the SL120 at all. I use RB 300(I prefer the 250 but it needs rewiring) and a Mica cartridge - so not much difference there.

I too use a modified SME plate. Have you tightened the arm to the plate too much - for best sound, my arm is very loose and I use home made washers of copper to adjust the arm height precisely. But you must know all this about the Rega arms.

It's worth mentioning that I have re-inforced concrete floors - maybe that's a difference.

What kind of platform is the deck on? Mine is on a piece of 25mm mdf which is itself bolted to a uni-pillar spiked speaker stand which is filled with sand. the deck itself is on sorbethane pods - I may well try spikes or wooden door knobs here or indeed some Xindak spheres - they are quite reasonable in price.

I made a cork mat which I find very good and feel no inclination to try any expensive variant.

I have a wonderful record that I use to test anything vinyl - it's a Manitas de Plata (little hands of silver) LP. I've seen the man live twice in the 60's - stupendous, yes but this recording used to sound so bright. Not on the SL120 I feel like he's playing in the room - definately not 'dead' or S/S - with all the passion and timbre of Flamenca guitar.

Black Stuart

[NealG]

Hi Stuart, thanks for the info on supports. I have the SL120 placed alongside my Gyro on a heavy double width metal Apollo stand spiked to the floor. It's weighted down with records on the bottom shelf. The glass shelves have been replaced with a combination of boards of my own spec. and RA Torlyte. The floor is concrete and the kit is in a different room to the 'speakers so well isolated from feedback.

The Rega arm nut is only done up finger tight, just enough to keep it from turning when the arm is moved. I found this worked well on my old OL deck and also the Gyro.

The SL has the original feet / legs.

I managed to switch back and forth again this eve. to make sure my first impression was not mistaken. The same arm and cart was used, Rega and Reca.

To my ears the difference is unmistakable. In comparative terms the SL sounds dry compared to the Lenco, the SL does not hold attention or really captivate me. However, in isolation it is fine, very stable with good detail, pace etc etc. Piano again shines on the Lenco, the SL presentation of piano is tonally similar to the Gyro. Both the Gyro and SL are metal 'chassis' I'm wondering if this has something to do with it.

I have also noticed on the Gyro a very slight waver or wobble to sustained piano notes that is not there with either the SL or Lenco plus it sounds ever so slightly off-key. A sign of minute low level speed variations?

[Black Stuart]

So NealG,
we have the same floor type, the difference in arms/cartridges is to all intents negligable. The nature of the plinth should be irrelevant in that the platter mat should decouple the record from it's support.

I have always used the Rega arms extremely loosely and in fact when changing sides invariably the arm bass moves and I always have to look to see if I need to re-adjust. Anything tighter than this impacts on the sound to a great extent, it's a feature of the Rega arms that I do not like. I think my use of copper foil, nothing special, I bought it from Maplin to sheild txs. may make a difference as well, in that I use 4 or 5 of these as washers and as the arm is very loose in some way this may decouple the arm from the plate sufficiently to loose that 'metal' sound that you are cursed with at the moment. I deliberately did'nt use any kind of rubber type substance here as a buffer because I think there it would 'blur' the sound - it's an argument that makes sense.

I can't remember the exact distance at the moment (223mm?) from centre to centre - spigot to arm plate centre but draw a line (pencil) across the plate, refix the arm. When you look down onto the arm you will see that there is a natural St.Andrew's cross at the very centre of the pivot - line up the pencil line with this and you must be spot on.

Anyone who has a Rega arm really should try this 'very loose' fitting of the arm. Tighten it to 'finger tight' and it becomes horribly 'android'.

As I said in my first post Neal - I'm not sure that sorbothane or indeed the original feet are the best thing and I fully intend to remove these and experiment with various options but none of these will be truly effective unless the platform is 'right'.

And the ultimate de-coupler has to be an 'air' platform with partially filled inner tubes. I can't get hold of any type of ply here - they just don't use it, so I shall have to work with MDF. Have you thought of making one Neal?

Black Stuart

[NealG]

Hi Stuart,

No, not thought about an air platform, I figured as my kit is in a different room to the 'speakers feedback is pretty minimal. However, there was some improvement with the Lenco when I used some solid wood cone feet.

I don't like the standard legs either, need to have a think about the best way to change these.

Arm / Cart alignment is spot on, spent a lot of time getting that right. The nut is not so tight, if I don't release the arm rest clamp fully and attempt to mover the arm the base moves so it's not much tighter than your mount.

I'm going to try the Toshiba deck tonight / tomorrow again for an alternative view, should be interesting.

[Black Stuart]

Neal,
I shall have to try the idler route as well I suppose but not before I try a unipivot arm on the d/d.

Black Stuart

[NealG]

I'm leaning the same way Stuart, hopefully I'll have the cartridge sorted soon then I can start looking down the back of the sofa for funds to go towards an arm!

Improve the SL a bit last night. Played about with different washers under the Rega and managed to get a combination working that opened up the top a little, goes to show how sensitive these things are.

[Black Stuart]

Exactly Neal,
but really it should'nt be nec. to fart **** around like this with an arm.

Reading the Toshiba thread - James is really pointing the way is'nt he with the uni-pivot suggestion.

Black Stuart