Tweaking Sextets.

[Alex Kitic]

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

Alex,
externalising the x/over is a good idea in any speaker and I don't intend to make a new box for the x/over, just create a new back board feeding the wiring through rubber grommets and re-soldering onto the original positions.

I agree with you about this - sometimes it is less "destructive" to the speaker to perform such an intervention: you can even keep the original crossover should you intend to sell the speakers one day. But maybe the real way to go would be - really - no crossover at all, but multi-amplification with frequency cuts installed in the amps. I might keep the Zobel networks where necessary, though.

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

Re. the K73-16s - do you have personal experience of them? There are so many truly primitive myths in the audio world which just don't match reality...
...
I have only one taste and that is for neutrality. Bias is like political and religious indoctrination I have total contempt for both.

I actually have no personal experience with Russian caps, other than the teflons some like - and some, obviously, dislike. Thus I cannot say anything for sure. My experience with WIMA caps is mostly from "small signal" applications, i.e. bypass caps, RIAA filter networks, etc - and while I prefer polypropylene-in-oil caps like the EPCOS, I can easily source WIMA and depend on friends around the world to send me some of those more exotic caps for my experiments and amps. That said, there is nothing particularly bad about WIMA caps in a preamp or amp... including the price and availability.

With all due respect, for a neutrality lover, you seem to be quite biased against the WIMA caps... don't get me wrong, please.

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

There is a thread on diyaudio about just these caps - hilariously, the few negative comments come from those that have never tried them and only one who has...

Strangely enough, there are lots of threads on diyaudio and other forums about my amps, and the negative comments come only from those who have actually never built one - or eventually tried to build one their own way (modifying something they do not fully understand or cannot improve on their own) ... the others seem quite satisfied, and I guess the most satisfied are those who built them and kept their impressions (and their amps) for themselves

[Alex Kitic]

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

It is your personal opinion that the Heybrooks are only so-so speakers, also to compare them to speakers that cost $4,500/£3000 in 1992 when the Heybrooks cost £1200 is'nt a fair comparison is it?

My opinion about the Sextets is as objective as possible. After all, I own and use a pair of those since 1996 - or 1997, if I am correct. I like to think that by now I know their characteristics quite well.
The comparison with other speakers is not so off as it looks. When mentioning the price of new units, one has to keep in mind that for some reason US speakers tend to cost at least double when crossing the "pond", but Italian speakers like Sonus Faber (was) also cost a lot more than in Italy. There is no objective way to compare the prices of speakers on a market, really.

As for so-so, let us say that I am an impoverished audiophile. One of those guys who happened to own far better (more expensive, as you put it) speakers than the Sextet. Hell, at the time I was not even looking at Heybrook or similar manufacturers (no pun intended whatsoever). Magneplanar, Apogee, Martin Logan, QUAD electrostatics, Sonus Faber... eventually the more expensive Rogers (LS5/9 and up), Spendors... etc - that was something I might have been interested (and happened to own or use extensively).

During the 90s, instead of becoming more wealthy and wiser as years passed by, I become more poor and stupid, I guess. One day I found out not only a tunnel was dug under the Channel, but there have already been some mishaps in that tunnel! And I knew nothing about it, because I was blessed to be living in Serbia. It's difficult to explain.

Commercial equipment has a price tag that is not proportional to the value of the stuff inside. Sometimes the box is really the most expensive part of it, since it is necessary for market positioning and sales. If you are into DIY, you might build better sounding equipment for the money, and if you are into designing things as well, there is nothing from keeping you to build your own stuff. If nothing else, you do not have to pay for craftsmanship and design (particularly if you cannot afford it). I usually say that I build my own amps because I like them better than those money could buy - but you are free to interpret it as "than those I can afford". Actually, I could probably afford nothing, just like very few commercial products can compete with my own concoctions (for me, at least - and that is what matters most in the end).

I am not yet into building my own speakers, but will probably come to that. The difficult part is sourcing (more than just paying for) the high quality components needed for a pair of speakers. And, besides having two good hands, you need space (workshop or garage) in order to build a loudspeaker box (not mentioning the smell of paint and varnish, etc). I happen to build my amps in my living room and my kitchen - and I do not blame others for being poor (that is a consequence of my own stupidity - staying in Serbia instead of getting the hell out of this place a long time ago, by any means possible).

I hope this explanation about the "so-so" categorization "holds water". In poor words, I have known better speakers, but can imagine that most people have not, which does not constitute a ground for a better assessment of the overall quality of the speaker...

[Black Stuart]

Alex,
by your own words the only Russian caps you have tried were the teflons and yet you express an opinion about a very different cap you have never tried.

As a principal in life, I never pronounce on something I have no experience of, it's just plain to stupid to do so. Unfortunately this is common in the world of audio. Tired old ideas are treated like religious texts, any criticism is attacked by the bigots who cannot let go of the past.

In my 'actual' experience as I have already said these Wimas sound like ****, that's not bias that comparing with other caps which I have 'actually used'. As it happens I am going to buy a different type of Wima for another project, I have been assured by the person recommending them that they are way better than the MkP 10 caps - vamos a ver/let's see.

You talk about 'price and availability' exactly the reason that commercial equipment uses them - hardly aspiring to a quality benchmark is it?

My diyaudio comment was specifically about the K73-16 caps - no where do I make mention of your projects.

Why not try the K73-16s, 'with an open mind' after all they are cheap, so not much of an investment risk is there.

Yes a lot of money in commercial speakers is spent on the physical appearance of a speaker not on producing a quality sound. How often have I heard comments about 'how nice' the Heybrooks look, which of course is completely irrelevant - it's the sound that counts dummies.

My comment stands, you were comparing speakers at 2 totally different price points. As to equipment costing more in Europe than in the USA is simple - importers in Europe are greedy and allowed to be so by laissez faire (in the pockets of big business) governments. Eg. AT/EV cartridge - I paid $399/£266 for it in the USA, in the UK if you were a chump(idiot) at that time the importer (known to many on this forum) was charging £569/$853, he has since dropped it to £499. The price has risen in the USA to $449 - so were are you going to buy?

As far as possible I try to buy very little in Europe because of this greed and especially from the UK because they almost always commit what I consider a fraud on postal costs.

A few years ago I was on the point of importing what I had found to be the best RCA plugs by a margin. Unfortunately the manufacturer was insisting on a sizeable initial order that I was'nt prepared to commit to in the very precarious economic climate at the time and with no continental franchise the deal was a no-no.

However I contacted an Englishman that did import this companies products into the UK. When he came back with a price I knew he had set it on a par with the totally outclassed and over priced Eichmans.

What he did'nt know was that I knew the wholesale price - a set of 4 plugs @ $12 + postage, he was trying to stiff me for £30/$45 per set and that was for number of sets.

The next year a Dutch company began selling them @ €48 per set - two very good example of the European greed - and they wonder why so many prefer to buy outside of Europe.

These same plugs can now be bought from, surprise, surprise the USA for $45/£27 per set.

I still hope to be supplied with these RCAs at a price where I can undercut the greedy ones.

[Alex Kitic]

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

Alex,
by your own words the only Russian caps you have tried were the teflons and yet you express an opinion about a very different cap you have never tried.

I did not express an opinion about a cap I have never tried!
What I did write was:

Originally Posted by Alex Kitic

I do not think that these speakers deserve or would repay particular investment in parts. While you may choose to use Russian stuff or Wima at your own taste (and your findings here only reflect your taste or bias), I suggest to keep it clean, small, tidy and inside the box, and that was my initial idea when posting about a simple tweak with more or less existing parts and minimum expense.

Now I guess there is no statement of opinion about those caps, or any caps, for that matter.

I did express an opinion about the speakers though. I guess I am entitled to one. After all, I do own them for quite a while. Probably longer than you do.

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

You talk about 'price and availability' exactly the reason that commercial equipment uses them - hardly aspiring to a quality benchmark is it?

The speaker we are tweaking is hardly a quality benchmark in itself, thus it will be difficult to establish quality benchmarks by tweaking it.

Furthermore, quality benchmarks are more often than not just expressions of opinion. There are established scientific procedures and methods when establishing benchmarks, which can hardly be adhered to by posts on forums.

Price and availability is an issue that you will probably never understand completely because you are blessed to live in some "normal" country where the rules of market economy apply. Trying to source parts that are not commonly available in my country leads to an increase in price that in most cases can get far beyond the greed of importers.
If there was need and space, I could explain the economics behind this phenomena, and why it does not happen where you live (i.e. how come world-wide internet based commerce is thriving so well in the normal world).

Most importantly, my original suggestion does not require sourcing any caps, but rearranging the crossover by removing superfluous parts. Should this mean the need to add different caps, the WIMA suggestion was based on the price and availability criteria, as well as feasibility criteria - crossover externalization was not suggested.
Try squeezing a 50uF paper in oil metal can cap inside the Sextet, or a few of those - and let us know how you managed to do it and how much space in the bass compartment did that consume? I am sure GE or similar NOS oil caps sound very fine, for that matter - but is it feasible? And would it matter that much?

Originally Posted by Black Stuart

My diyaudio comment was specifically about the K73-16 caps - no where do I make mention of your projects.

I was agreeing with you on the subject. You somehow misunderstood that.

Please do not turn this into something it is not.

Speakers are not my main field of interest. I proposed a tweak that I tried for myself and was happy with the results. The speakers are so-so but not everyone has the money or means to go buy better ones. The tweak does not necessarily include buying anything nor spending anything except maybe one hour of pleasant DIY play. In case some components (caps, or resistors) are needed, I have suggested solutions that are appropriate to the task.

Let's not turn this into an argument about irrelevant opinions. I am sure there are other threads and forums much more appropriate for that kind of activity.

[pre65]

Originally Posted by Alex Kitic

Let's not turn this into an argument about irrelevant opinions. I am sure there are other threads and forums much more appropriate for that kind of activity.

Well said Alex.

[phil w]

Apologies for joining this thread after such a long time but I have recently purchased a pair of Sextets and am interested in the tweaks mentioned above.

Unfortunatly on removing the terminal board/crossover I noticed a wire flapping about in the breeze-a small gauge red, from I think the midrange. On carefully opening the other speaker I seem to have done the same thing and pulled the same red wire off.

My plea is could somebody provide me with a scematic or picture of the Sextet crossover so that I can restore them to original working order before "tweaking"?
The links above seem to have expired.

Many thanks in advance.

Phil.

[Ali Tait]

Found this, dunno if it's correct though-

http://www.tech-diy.com/Loudspeakers...k/Heybrook.htm

[phil w]

That seems a bit too complicated for the Sextet but thanks for the link anyway.

Regards, Phil.

[damian]

I'm not one for restarting a thread that's two years old but I was hoping that someone would have valid links (or pictures) of the later Heybrook Sextet crossover.

I'm pretty sure I have the Mk2 (Seas woofer with bullet/mid drivers) from 1993.

[damian]

Originally Posted by damian

I'm not one for restarting a thread that's two years old but I was hoping that someone would have valid links (or pictures) of the later Heybrook Sextet crossover.

I'm pretty sure I have the Mk2 (Seas woofer with bullet/mid drivers) from 1993.

Updated for posterity.....

I did a straight replacement of like-for-like on the capacitors (60uf Alcap, 2.2uf, 6uf & 5.6uf Solens) however my ribbon finally bit the dust, one of my cats caught the ribbon with a claw a few years back so the writing was on the wall.

The Tonegen tweeter, well actually an Infinity made EMIT-K can be repaired by Michael A. Marks, MD AKA: MagicMarksy on eBay. As of June 2018 he acknowledged he can repair it.

I made the decision to replace both ribbon tweeters with Fountek NeoCD1.0s, a brave decision I feel, but I thought the what the hell! This is a 5ohm unit that has a greater range than the Tonegen so the simple 1st order 2.2uf/2.2ohm was replaced with a 2LR, 3.3uf/0.33mH, attenuated (at present) with a 3.3ohm.

I've relocated the crossover externally, as suggested above, there isn't a great deal of space for anything....try putting an air-core inductor in a position where it won't affect the other is difficult to say the least! So now I have tri-wired Sextets, perfect for an active crossover at some point in time.

I replaced the internal wiring for the mid/tweeter with PC-OCC solid-core copper (I stripped some old AudioQuest Ruby interconnects), the LF unit just has simple two-core although I may consider changing this.

The replaced tweeter required a plastic faceplate being cut to mount the new unit on, I'm sure at some point in time I'll 3D-print something more aesthetically pleasing.

Love live the Sextets!